"No one knows what will happen in the next five years" As the senior reporter at Business Insider where he focuses on the emerging cannabis economy, Jeremy Berke has an opportunity to view the space through an objective lens. He joins co-hosts Ross O'Brien and Maggie Kelly from Bonaventure Equity to share some honest cannabis sector observations and to provide valuable insights for both investors and founders. Produced by PodConX Cannabis Capital - https://podconx.com/podcasts/cannabis-capital Ross O'Brien - https://podconx.com/guests/ross-obrien Maggie Kelly - https://podconx.com/guests/maggie-kelly Bonaventure Equity - https://www.bvequity.com/ Jeremy Berke - https://podconx.com/guests/jeremy-berke Business Insider - https://www.businessinsider.com/author/jeremy-berke
"No one knows what will happen in the next five years."
As the senior reporter at Business Insider where he focuses on the emerging cannabis economy, Jeremy Berke has an opportunity to view the space through an objective lens. He joins co-hosts Ross O'Brien and Maggie Kelly from Bonaventure Equity to share some honest cannabis sector observations and to provide valuable insights for both investors and founders.
Cannabis Capital - https://podconx.com/podcasts/cannabis-capital
Ross O'Brien - https://podconx.com/guests/ross-obrien
Maggie Kelly - https://podconx.com/guests/maggie-kelly
Bonaventure Equity - https://www.bvequity.com/
Jeremy Berke - https://podconx.com/guests/jeremy-berke
Business Insider - https://www.businessinsider.com/author/jeremy-berke
BV Jeremy Berke
Ross O'Brien: [00:00:00] Listeners. And welcome again to another exciting episode of cannabis, capital the podcast. I'm your host, Dr. So Brian venture, capitalist and author of cannabis, capital the book. Welcome to another episode with my fabulous co-host Maggie Kelly, Maggie, really excited with all the momentum we're getting around our cannabis economy and blunt truth.
This is a really taking off.
Maggie Kelly: It is. Hi Ross. I'm excited to be here with you and our listeners today. We're always excited to bring you these interviews, but this one is particularly exciting. Would you like to know why.
Ross O'Brien: Absolutely.
Maggie Kelly: Our guest today has covered the cannabis economy. For years. He's had a front row seat to the unrolling of this economy, canada legalizing regulatory changes in the us, the booms and busts of the green rash, layoffs, and fallouts and profiling, innovative startups and change makers in cannabis.
And [00:01:00] that doesn't cover it up. And he has none other than Jeremy Burke, senior reporter for business insights. But before we get started, it's the cannabis economy challenge our weekly challenged to see if listeners can identify an industry or sector that is not impacted by cannabis legalization, Ross' currently sits undefeated.
And why not? It's our podcast though. It pains me somewhat to say that he's pretty much always been right. Ross. This week's challenge is the fashion industry. What do you have to say to that?
Ross O'Brien: Well, I missed that bit about being right. Could you just repeat that?
Maggie Kelly: You can listen to this podcast when it airs. If you
Ross O'Brien: Oh, okay, great. Okay. Thank you, Maggie. So, the fashion industry is actually one that's super interesting because. Quick answer. There is hemp as textiles as an alternative to cotton and Maggie. This reminds me of my days and as an undergrad, when I used to support some pretty cool hemp, jewelry and necklaces that. was also a period [00:02:00] that was also a period where I was consuming a lot as well.
So sort of all come full circle. I. the hemp jewelry anymore. But I think the world is ready to embrace those fashion styles. So, this one, I think you probably gave me a layup or a softball today, right? Because you wanted to make sure I'm still, still undefeated. And I will go into the weekend being very proud of my record.
Maggie Kelly: Okay, so listeners, if you could do me a big favor, please help prove Ross wrong. At least once visit cannabis capital podcast.com to submit your challenge. And it could wind up on a future episode now onto the show featuring Jeremy Burke of business insider.
Jeremy Berk: I'm Jeremy Burke. I am a senior reporter at business insider covering the cannabis industry and my blunt truth is that it is a completely wild and crazy ride. And no one [00:03:00] knows what to predict and what will happen in the next five years.
Maggie Kelly: Okay. Well, Jeremy, we are thrilled to have you on the show today, before we get started, would you mind giving our listeners a little background on yourself and your career covering the cannabis?
Jeremy Berk: Sure. So first of all, Maggie and Ross. Thanks for it. Thanks for having me here. This is a great great opportunity. I'm excited to do it. I will give you my little elevator speech. So I've been covering. The cannabis industry full time since 2017. And in the cannabis industry, things are like dog years, right?
So I've seen a few booms and busts a few markets cycles. I've seen companies rise and fall. So, I'm only 29, but I feel like a grizzled veteran at this point. I started a business insider basically out of college. I was covering. Politics and news that was the run up to the 2016 election quickly figured out that that wasn't my passion or was it what I really wanted to cover.
And around that time, legalization was just on the radar in Canada. Trudeau had just been [00:04:00] elected. He was running a, to legalize marijuana and Canada was going to become the first group of seven G seven powerful economic nation to legalize it. And so to me, I thought there was a big gap in coverage on the one hand.
Articles written about the cannabis industry. We're a, it was like bond reviews or strain reviews and the kind of fluffy stuff that is interesting. But wasn't my passion. And then the other side, you had stuff that was sort of like recycled PR where it was a press release saying like, here's this awesome company.
Here's why it's so awesome. And you should invest. I wanted to slot right in the middle. And I didn't see. Serious publications covering it and taking the industry seriously as a multi-billion dollar opportunity as a legislative change as a public policy shift. And so I started doing that one-off in early 2017 and by the beginning of 2018, I pitched it to the higher ups at business insider.
And they gave me the runway to do so. And it's been a fantastic ride ever.
Ross O'Brien: Oh, Jeremy, thanks for all that background. And I am an avid reader of business insider and everything that you and your [00:05:00] team cover and, really stands out. We were kind of in a similar position looking for where are the really quality, where's the really quality, the quality information.
That is business centric and professional, and you guys have certainly led the way. So we're thrilled to be having a broader conversation with you. Thank you. Talk to us a little about as a grizzled veteran. Talk to us a little bit about Yeah. I've got my Grizzle to go in today. Although Maggie always is looking great.
Talk to us a little bit about how you had to learn or develop sifting through a lot of the noise, right? So, as us as venture capital. We get countless pitches and only a small percentage of them are suitable are within our strike zone. And we have to put up some pretty good filters to, to think through what's going on.
And I would imagine that everybody wants to be on your shortlist of coverage. So how did you sort of manage all that attention as you establish this and how do you filter through for quality?
Jeremy Berk: Yeah. So it's a work in progress, and I'm [00:06:00] not trying to toot my own horn here, but every day I'm sort of in this morass of, of hundreds of emails, text messages, phone calls, social media reach outs. And so, Ross, to your point, sifting through the noise is very difficult and it's something I am working on every single day.
But it will say this, Sort of a corollary between what I do and what you do, whereas when you want to look at a company, take a meeting or potentially invest your risking capital which is risky. And sometimes it's not your own money. You have investors to answer to, and, and you have to make those decisions on that front.
What I am risking generally speaking is my personal reputation, right? And so when I write an article. Jeremy Burke is on the byline. I want that to mean something. Want people to read Jeremy Burke. And so part of what I have to do is think like an investor I have to say, is this startup worth covering?
Do I think this will be a big company? And I have a lot less data that I can kind of pull from, then you guys do it. I bought less time to do so as well. I have to kind of make these decisions quickly. And so not everything is a hit, right? Like sometimes I read about companies that, I don't ever want to be the person who.
Profiles [00:07:00] Elizabeth Holmes on the cover of Forbes two years before the company implodes. And I haven't found myself in that position, but I'm always very careful to not do so. At the same time, part of it is also just taking a lot of meetings and, and building a network of sources I can trust and bouncing ideas off of that.
Like, Hey, what do you think about this company? And then asking that to 10 people. And if seven people say it's great, you should cover it. If all 10 people say, I would really look under the hood and figure out what's going on there. Then that means it's a story as well, not necessarily a positive one.
And so part of that is what I do. And you know what I've gotten better at over the past couple of years, but at the same time, like I said, it's not an exact science, it's a work in progress as with any reporter. I'm trying to figure out who I should pay attention to every single day, the types of meetings I should take.
And sometimes we get lucky, right? I mean, just some sort of successes we've had, like we covered 10 the beverage company when they were raising a seed round and now they're all over the country. Same with Dutchie, you've covered them when they're raising 5 million bucks. And now it's a 3.7, [00:08:00] $5 billion company.
We interviewed the CEO of green thumb industries when it had 10 employees and now, it has a multiple billion dollar market cap. And so, some things are hits. Some things are not. the same time as a reporter, you have enough to pull from when things aren't hits as well.
Like a startup, we recently covered roots research, small pre-funding round. We realized that the founder had been pitching us on a story that was untrue and that's a story in of itself, right? Like if you say. He has all these wonderful people on his executive team when we pick up the phone and they say, they're not an executive team, that's a story as well.
And that's Ross, to continue my corollary forward. That's not a company you would likely invest in, but it's still a company I would write about just because of, of what what they're saying, what they're pitching.
Ross O'Brien: Well, I think it's really interesting that you, you, you bring up roots and I read the coverage as it was coming out from you guys. But it was a really important conversation that people should pay attention to. And if anybody hasn't read that coverage yet they should go back and look at it. It really [00:09:00] resonated with us because.
Unfortunately look as with any sector, there's always, people operating in the dark corners and on the fringe it seems to be extremely prevalent and very upfront, almost in, in cannabis. So when you looked at a story like that or some of the other controversies and some of the other things that are, that are, less than disingenuous, if you will.
, what are the signals that you look for , that gets your radar up? When you see something like that?
Jeremy Berk: Yeah, I'll say this. I get a lot of outreach that is entirely self promotional, which is fine. I pride myself on social media all the time, but. And alarm bell when someone is trying really hard to tell me how great they are, and I don't really already know about their work or how great they are.
That's an alarm bell, right? I would say this, if you want for listeners out there, if you want press coverage for your company, you better be a very confident in your product and confident in your story. And B you have to be truthful. You cannot [00:10:00] exaggerate claim. 'cause we'll figure it out. Like I, I'm not a rocket scientist. Like, all I had to do for that root story is make a few phone calls and that's something that anybody can do. But I want to say this, like, we will make those phone calls. We will figure out the true story and we'll get to the bottom of it. And the more convoluted and complicated it is sometimes the better a story that can turn out to be all that being said, right?
Like, please do reach out, please do promote yourself, but just be confident and make sure that you can back up the claims you're making. Like, if you send me a pitch deck and your. Projecting, X million dollars of growth. Like I want to see what's fundamentally going to grow the company that much, not just some sort of guests that you're making to try and please me, or try and get a business insider article written about you.
So I would say, be careful, definitely do promote yourself, but make sure that, everything that you're telling me is truthful and that's aligned to facts and logic and not not your own sort of brilliant ideas
Ross O'Brien: Jeremy, have you ever considered a career in venture capital?
Jeremy Berk: I wouldn't I wouldn't say no [00:11:00] happy where I am right now, but.
Ross O'Brien: Most of our listeners are, and we invest in early stage companies. So there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there and it's so, spot on. And I think really important for people to hear, at the end of the day, like when we're in diligence, it's the same thing, just at a different level and yes, there's capital and reputation's at risk.
And the whole thing, I love how you described that. We always say. Everything has a story. There's no sort of perfect scenario. And we always say like, we would rather be told something and not have to otherwise go find it out on our own. So if there was a lawsuit or something in the past, so it doesn't mean it's good or bad or right or wrong.
But if I find that out through my own research and it wasn't previously disclosed, it raises some real questions about the transparency and really how ethical the operation.
Jeremy Berk: That's exactly the point, right? Ross it's it's about transparency. I'm not making value judgments here. I'm just trying to show readers. And many of whom are investors, what the people I'm talking to are say, and the story can be [00:12:00] self-evident from there. If you are misleading, or if there's stuff in your past that you haven't told me about.
That will come out, investors will read it. And so I think at the end of the day, it's less about me making some sort of ethical, moral, or value, judgment, and more about just being transparent and truthful about, the problems and issues with your company, as well as the successes that you've had and, and the cool growth projections and the great product you're selling and all that kind of thing.
So, transparency is, is I think crucial, you hit the nail on.
Maggie Kelly: So we're talking about transparency and your interactions with people or companies that you may want to cover stories , that are valid to tell. So if you think about any, everyone that you've come in. Over the years, especially with founders. What changes if any, have you noticed in the founders that are leading the most successful startups and companies today?
Because I would imagine that as this economy has evolved, the type of founder you're interviewing has evolved as well. So like what changes have you seen and what, if [00:13:00] anything, has remained consistent across the board?
Jeremy Berk: Yeah, get that's a really, really good question. I will take a stab at an answer and then think about it a little bit more, but I will say this, I mean, even in, even in the past three and a half, four years, I've been covering this space for years, the, the professionalism has changed.
A lot. We saw the winnowing out of, kind of the first crop of CEOs after the market corrected, which you're all familiar with in 2019. And the professionalism is much different than the firms, like the investor relations firms, the public relations firms that these people are working. Have them on much more solid talking points, like before, get on some calls and I'd make it very clear on the record.
And then, the CEO to use that as an opportunity to just like trash their competitors the whole time and like about what they're doing better, why they're the best it's like, okay. Like, I just want to inform you. That this is on the record, right? Like I can, I can write about this and you should be careful and just sort of gentle reminders.
We see a lot less of that now. We see people who are focused on the fundamentals of their business. [00:14:00] People who, while, the valuations of some of their companies may be out of whack. And my opinion, at least they have. An understanding of where it comes from and why it is and what the business is going to do.
We see a lot more sort of reasonable, mature growth projections rather than, okay. Cannabis is going to be legal as next year. And we're going to be the number one company in whatever vertical they're in. We don't see that kind of crazy bullishness. We don't see it as much of like a land grab as it was anymore.
We have. I mean, this is sort of like a bad metaphor, but it's sort of like the railway Barron's and the 1920s or whatever, where they're just like smashing the competition. Like we see a lot less of that, a lot more reasonable and nuance takes about their business. And I would say the founders that are successful again, like it goes back to that transparency thing.
It goes back to having. Reasonable growth projections. And it goes back to communicating with me in a transparent and truthful way. That's not to say that, you're watering everything down to sort of public relations, focused talking points, but at the same time, you are being [00:15:00] a little bit more careful when you're talking to a reporter than people were in the past.
And now I don't want to encourage everyone because sometimes we get great stories when people aren't careful. So, please do tell me all your dirty and dark secrets, but at the same time we see a lot less of that now.
Ross O'Brien: So I think that's so interesting. And we had somebody on the podcast, Tyler Berline from hyper. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's really, really important. He said something that really stuck with us and that, he's been around for a long time in the space as well. And he said, ah, you should never confuse a bull market with bricks. And we, we kind of stepped back and said, look, we talk a lot about, go slow to go fast. You spoke a little bit about, the sector moving in dog years and we agree. But how did you apply some of your prior experience outside of cannabis? Because what you're really talking about are fundamentals, and we're getting into, and there is just a core base of business fundamentals. It doesn't matter. It, whether it's cannabis or healthcare or et cetera, just because you love cannabis, doesn't mean the rules of business don't apply. So [00:16:00] during this, irrational exuberance of this rush to get into these opportunities, like how did you develop the lens of prior experiences and apply it to, just what sort of made sense and, and how to synthesize that for your readership.
Jeremy Berk: Yeah, I think it's still a learning curve for me. And I don't think I've perfected this. But what I can say is, I've spent, the better part of five, six years now, like at business insider, like looking at earnings statements, looking at balance sheets and figuring out like, what does a successful company look like?
What does a mature company look like? And then what does. A smoke and mirrors company look like. And so part of that is just having, literacy a little bit. I'm not great at math, but having a little bit of numeracy and mathematical literacy to be able to figure that out. Part of that is just being able to read a balance sheet.
Like it's not, again, it's not rocket science, even if you're scared of math, you should be able to kind of see like, okay, What does the revenue look like? Is it growing? How much money are they losing? What are they spending it on? Is their marketing budget way out of whack [00:17:00] with what they're actually selling.
Like, it's just these sort of simple things. And it kind of gives you cues when you talk to folks and they sort of try and hide things and you say like, okay, like what did your revenue look like over the last quarter? What percent that it grows? There's no easy answers there when you're on the phone. If an executive doesn't have that at their fingertips and that's a sign that like, Maybe they just don't know, and they're not paying attention to the business, which is bad or B, they're trying to cover it up.
And so I think that's really critical. And then the other side of that is just, this is a sense that every reporter works on to develop is just having a people sets when someone seems genuine, you can kind of trust them when they seem genuine in their third, fourth or fifth meeting that you're having with them.
Then you can really trust them when someone is coming off. Pompous or they're super self promotional or something like that. That's kind of a cue to dig in a little bit deeper. And I would say that's a skill I'm working on every day. Like, I, I have been led astray, my own guts and my own instinct intuition has told me something about a person that didn't end up being true.
And so it's something I'm still working on. There's a very steep learning [00:18:00] curve there, especially given, all this stuff. Kind of thrown my way every single day, sifting through that is difficult, but the more you kind of do it, the better you get at it, it's a muscle that you can work on and you can practice.
Ross O'Brien: So I hope the listeners are catching really the nuance to what you're talking about, Jeremy, in terms of financial literacy and storytelling, we always talk about, financial. I got terrible grades in math when I was a kid, but it turns out I'm really good at math when it created a story, when there was a story to tell, like when the numbers meant something, and you can actually read between the columns.
And so as a journalist, obviously being right in your wheelhouse, do you have any advice for entrepreneurs out there on how to. Be really direct and succinct and focused on in their storytelling, financials and otherwise.
Jeremy Berk: Yeah, that's a great question, Ross, I would say this, I think make sure that, every single part of your company [00:19:00] before you get on a call with me. Like, especially if it's a smaller company, it's like, think about like a bike, it's a relatively simple. Mechanical piece of equipment, but it's not too hard to know, how the crank connects to the bottom bracket, let's say, or how the handlebars connect to the stem, figure that out first and then come talk to me.
And again, like you said, Ross, it's not rocket science. It shouldn't be too scary. The math is actually pretty simple. When you think about it, it's something that anybody, with a high school diploma can really do and learn. And so it's not that hard. And then I think the other point of that is not. Again, showing the numbers. It's connecting that to the story. Say, Hey, we spent a little more use the marketing example. We spent a little more this quarter on marketing it's for X and Y reason. Here's the clear throughput of what we're spending money on and why, or, we want to raise money. Let's say if you're a private company because of X, Y, and Z reason.
Not because we want our evaluation to go through the roof. Great articles written about us. We really need that money because we want to hire, an engineering team. And I don't know, [00:20:00] Southern California because that's, a crucial area of growth for us. So it's just being specific and knowing the number is, and I know that bike metaphor is sort of ham-fisted, but it's just knowing how the pieces fit together and how they connect and being able to sort of speak on that intelligently.
And also, what I, what I always tell entrepreneurs and they talk about. A lot of these companies are pretty confusing. The cannabis industry is convoluted, so it's like, don't talk to me like I'm 29. Talk to me like I'm a very smart sixth grader. And if you can't explain it to a sixth grader, you probably don't understand what you're talking about.
Maggie Kelly: I love that perspective. If we could take more of a 30,000 foot perspective here, switch gears a little bit. So another great quote that came out of Tyler's a recent interview with us is he was. The advances in cannabis that we're seeing now, he's like, this is our generation's prohibition. And I love that comment.
So given that, our country has gone through a period of prohibition and this is our generation's prohibition. What, how do you feel about that statement one, but then two, like what predictions, [00:21:00] given what we know and momentum that we're seeing, are there any bold predictions that you can make or some, at least some rough guesstimate.
Jeremy Berk: Maggie. I will get a little bit out over my skis when I start a pining on. Okay. So I'll caveat all of my answers with that, but I will say this right? When you look at polling, you have upwards of 90% support among the U S electorate of legalizing some form of cannabis, whether that's medical or recreational.
What other issues? Do that many Americans agree on, partisanship polarization has increased a lot in the last decade or two decades, however far back you want to push that. So cannabis is one of the few things where you have, very progressive folks agreeing with super libertarian folks that this should be legal.
The question is how to do. I think the progressive vision differs a lot from the libertarian vision, which is like, Republicans might say, okay, hands-off this is legal. It's fine. Let's make money. Let's tax it low. Whereas Progressive's [00:22:00] might want to create a lot of taxes on it. They want to use legalization to sort of expand the government and create new bureaucracies that will apportion tax revenue.
Towards, what they deem social equity applicants. However you define that. And so the, how is the question? It is not the win in my view. And so my broad prediction though, all that being said is that I don't think we're going to see. Much movement in the near-term future at the federal level in the U S I think all of the action right now is in the states.
Congress has a lot bigger fish to fry. You might notice the news today about the infrastructure bill. They had bigger fish to fry than legalization, even though it's popular. There is a sense I get from talking to lobbyists and talking to people who are engaged in DC. Support is a mile wide, but it's also an inch deep.
And legalization is hard to do based on, trying to unite all these different factions. And so it will take a determined focus and a real large team in, let's say Senator Chuck Schumer's office to actually get this thing over the finish line. That is [00:23:00] palatable to all the people pushing for it.
And so, my bold prediction here is I don't expect federal legalization in the U S the next two years. I think that, if Biden gets reelected, if the Democrats do hold on to one or both bodies of Congress, then we will see movement in the back half of Biden's term. But I do think these sorts of.
Partial, narrower pieces, let's say the safe banking act a bill that would protect banks that want to work at the cannabis industry. And I will, I do think we will start to see some of that happen sooner than we do see full-scale federal legalization. All that being said, I would love to be wrong.
I'd love to be proven.
Ross O'Brien: So one of the things that we observed and I'd love to hear your. Perspectives on this from all the coverage that you guys do. It struck us that cannabis legalization, and, we've been fairly involved in a number of the federal level with our fund, et cetera. It was, it was, we generally perceived it as, as largely a bi-partisan.
And when we were in DC and with some of the, in the first rounds on the [00:24:00] safe banking act, we were and heard directly from legislators that it was uncommon to have such a strong Republican support for this. The numbers that they were looking for in terms of votes were exceeding all expectations and largely saying, look it's because a lot of the business institutions are, are interested in, I mean, the insurance companies want.
Legalization. They've got big problems with it. The exchanges want to do all these, these IPOs here in the U S and not on foreign exchanges and the banks obviously, and credit cards. So we looked at that and then what we're struggling with, or trying to barbell this with, or balance this with is that there doesn't seem to be any consistent message or voice from the cannabis sector with respect to objectives on our regulatory lobbying for rights registry.
So as investors, for example, I don't see, federal legalization as an, as, as something that needs to happen in the near term for us to be successful. We [00:25:00] see it as generally, as states come online, that the companies we invest in will benefit from that. And so there's a nice sort of arbitrage in these smaller disparate markets.
But you know, if you were to ask us, would we put a lot of effort or money behind like federal legalization? I'm not sure that's where we would. And then I think a lot of the operators do want to see that. is something that we're struggling with is trying to reconcile these sort of too. There's a lot of bi-partisan momentum.
It's something that has great support. As you pointed out from the elect, from, from the residents of the, elect voters, yet it doesn't seem, and I like what you said about the mile wide inch deep from a lobbying standpoint, it seems to me that there's still a lot of fractions that have different objectives and different ways of which they want to approach legislate.
Jeremy Berk: I think that's exactly right. I mean, just look at social media about the safe banking act. And when you have a lot of progressives who are pro cannabis, who hate this. I actually think it's evil, and I don't want to fully, Fully go into their camp by any means, but just to sort of hear out their argument, they're saying that, the [00:26:00] biggest issue with cannabis legalization is not that people should be free to put whatever they want, their bodies that's part of it, but it should be because of the racialized decades. Drug war, right? Because of policing because of incarceration rates. And they're saying that safe banking.
Wow. You could argue that it does ameliorate, that that does help social equity applicants get into the industry. It doesn't actually do the thing that they want to do, which is expunged records, which is get people out of jail. On the other side of the coin, you still do have, and the Republican party, and while there is support for legalization, I don't want to discount that, there still is social conservativism, right?
There still is people who think cannabis is a devil's lettuce who think it's bad. We think that a moral, upstanding society should not have it in that society should not be selling it. And so you have to kind of rectify all these different things. And I think. All that being said, the reason why I think we're seeing so much push on the safe banking act is because, there are organizations like the [00:27:00] American bankers association that are telling members of Congress that they want to get this passed.
And so when you have organizations that are that powerful, that are pushing for it, then you will start to see the momentum. That's just sort of how, American politics works. At the same time, I don't want to sort of discount anyone's argument, but I do think that. It is hard to kind of create a big enough tent where everyone that's pushing for legalization will be completely aligned on the same things.
I think we are starting to see more and more of a bifurcation. Like I said, between Progressive's between, let's say the operators, the multi-state operators in the U S who want very different things, if I'm sitting here as a CEO of. Truly Brent them industries. What I want are monopolies in my business.
I want to tell shareholders that I am dominating Florida. I am dominating Illinois, whether it's this huge untapped, addressable market. Whereas, if I run. Some sort of non-profit if I'm normal, if I'm the drug policy Alliance, what I want to show, the people that donate to me, the people that [00:28:00] support me is that I'm getting people out of jail and figuring out how to rectify those two interests, I think will be really, really challenging moving forward.
And I think, the more that you see that split the less, the more you'll see that tent dissolve, I guess the more the more difficult it will be to keep that alignment. Like you said, Ross, on these issues to kind of move the ball.
Ross O'Brien: Well, Jeremy is part of why we start every episode with the cannabis economy challenge and the perspective that this is an economy and not an industry. And what you're talking about, syncs up with that perspective. So as a global macro economy with sub sectors and sub-industries within it, the lobbying will largely track to those sub-sectors in those sub industries.
So. As opposed to trying to capture everybody in one tent. I think we will see these, these sectors start to develop their own strategies and approaches and that's really what needs to happen. And it's why we're convicted that, this is a global macro trend and cannabis , is going to be part of our communities for the longterm.
And we hope that that brings a lot of, and we anticipate, and we're investing in that bringing a lot of great [00:29:00] outcomes for patients, health care and things like this. what chairman, this is a lot to chew on from a grizzled veteran. I love it. Really interesting conversation. And like I said, we follow everything that you guys do, and you've really set a standard out there that we look to Maggie we've covered a lot.
Did, did we miss anything?
Maggie Kelly: I'm sure there's a lot we missed, so we need to have Jeremy back on a future episode, but I think this covers a lot for today. So many things to Jeremy Burke of business insider for joining us to. Details covered. And this episode can be found in the show notes. And remember, if you have a cannabis economy challenge, please visit cannabis capital podcast.com and you can find us next Thursday with a new episode of cannabis capital the podcast.
Ross O'Brien: Oh, you know what? I did miss something Maggie. I didn't mention that. I wrote a book. I mention that I wrote a book?
Maggie Kelly: Jeremy. I'm sorry. You had to witness that shameless. Self-promotion
Jeremy Berk: That's right.
Maggie Kelly: shameless.
Ross O'Brien: So go by cannabis capital. The book [00:30:00]
Maggie Kelly: It gets your business funded and the cannabis economy by Warren Rostow Brian.
Ross O'Brien: Jeremy is going to have to write a bad review.
Jeremy Berk: That's right. That's right. And the next, yeah. And my next article, it's trashing the book.
Maggie Kelly: You would, as Mike.