Founders must have a "Failure is not an option" mindset. "Entrepreneurship is hard, entrepreneurship in the cannabis industry is even harder, you better be ready". Veteran entrepreneur Peichen Chang, CEO and Founder of TCheck joins Ross O'Brien and Maggie Kelly to talk about his entrepreneurial journey. He shares the unexpected conversation he had with a friend suffering from Parkinson disease that inspired him to launch his company. In addition to the TCheck story they also discuss some misconceptions about entrepreneurship and Ross tackles this week's Cannabis Economy Challenge - consumer / kitchen products. Produced by PodConX Cannabis Capital - https://podconx.com/podcasts/cannabis-capital Ross O'Brien - https://podconx.com/guests/ross-obrien Maggie Kelly - https://podconx.com/guests/maggie-kelly Bonaventure Equity - https://www.bvequity.com/ Peichen Chang - https://podconx.com/guests/peichen-chang TCheck - https://tcheck.me/
Founders must have a "Failure is not an option" mindset.
"Entrepreneurship is hard, entrepreneurship in the cannabis industry is even harder, you better be ready". Veteran entrepreneur Peichen Chang, CEO and Founder of TCheck joins Ross O'Brien and Maggie Kelly to talk about his entrepreneurial journey. He shares the unexpected conversation he had with a friend suffering from Parkinson disease that inspired him to launch his company. In addition to the TCheck story they also discuss some misconceptions about entrepreneurship and Ross tackles this week's Cannabis Economy Challenge - consumer / kitchen products.
Produced by PodConX
Cannabis Capital - https://podconx.com/podcasts/cannabis-capital
Ross O'Brien - https://podconx.com/guests/ross-obrien
Maggie Kelly - https://podconx.com/guests/maggie-kelly
Bonaventure Equity - https://www.bvequity.com/
Peichen Chang - https://podconx.com/guests/peichen-chang
TCheck - https://tcheck.me/
BV peichen Chang
Maggie Kelly: [00:00:00] So Peyton, we're really happy to have you on one of the first episodes of cannabis, capital the podcast.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and give us some background on T.
Peichen Chang: sure. Thank you, Maggie and Ross, and I'm honored to be invited to this. So I'm probably actually one of the last people you'd ever think would get involved in the cannabis industry. I was a military brat and my father was in the military. And so, it's about as conservative of a childhood as you can possibly imagine.
I mean, military air base in Japan, which is a fantastically conservative country. All along the way.
Maggie Kelly: Okay.
Peichen Chang: Know, as I went through school, undergraduate New York and an engineering school and LS and all that. Something opened my eyes a number of years ago and that's something was actually a friend of ours.
Okay. And so, I grew up with a whole cannabis is bad kind of thing, but one of my friends came to me and said, Hey, you know what? I, I treat my Parkinson's. [00:01:00] And this was somebody I very much respected and somebody, I would've never thought was a pothead. And she wrote a pothead. Okay.
She was using cannabis to control a medical condition. And so that kind of cracked my eyes open and she said, Hey, I use edibles to control my Parkinson's and can you help me out? And being an engineer, of course, and I'm all about, Hey, let's go make a cool widget. And so we went and did some research and part of my research was going out and talking with a whole bunch of.
Folks who use cannabis and why did my impressions change? It was, it was an eyeopening experience. And I found that, there were doctors and dentists and lawyers and accountants, and all these professionals, folks who use cannabis to manage some, whether that's something might.
PTSD, for folks who might might've been in the military or folks who use cannabis to manage their Parkinson's or multiple sclerosis or some other kind of condition. And I learned a whole lot from all those discussions and my, my impressions for canvas [00:02:00] changed completely. And that's how I got into the business.
We, we built this gadget for a friend and in, so doing it was, it was a life altering.
Maggie Kelly: Well, I can relate to the, military upbringing. My dad was a drill Sergeant. in the army. So that was fun.
He ever offers to walk you to school saying no you're marching.
Peichen Chang: yeah. You stay between these lines and very much between the lines.
Ross O'Brien: Patron and Maggie, since you both had a front seat to military experiences in your family patient, what, what from those experiences translate to entrepreneurship? What, what did you observe and things that we want to talk about entrepreneurship today? So what sort of things did you observe?
You have now been able to adapt or would recommend other entrepreneurs think about when it comes to leadership and discipline and starting. Yeah.
Peichen Chang: Okay. Actually, there are a lot and I didn't even think about it. And so you just mentioned it just now Ross. So first off you read in like a novels and stuff like that, about military people, like, failure's not an [00:03:00] option, right? Well, you gotta go into building a company of failures, not in.
You're all in on this thing. Okay. And so, my wife and I mortgaged our house and done and dove into this thing, we cashed in our 401k, we dove into this thing. And so, yeah. Failure is really not an option. Number two is discipline. Okay. Because, as I mentioned in my opening, it's going to be hard.
And you, you really have to have the discipline to. Push through some of the painful times. And there are going to be some, no matter what you do, they're going to be some painful times.
Ross O'Brien: So we both have. Experiences prior to this cannabis economy, entrepreneurship in starting companies and patron. We'd love to you to go through a little bit more about some of the companies that you worked on. Other things that you learned that you now translate, because there's something to be said about veteran leadership and veteran entrepreneurship and applicable to these hard times.
But when you talk about failure is not an [00:04:00] option and discipline and the commitment. What, what do you see that enables you and your team to take that extra step, to not give in where others might? Because that's just something that happens in a lot in entrepreneurship.
Peichen Chang: Sure. So this is not, not the first venture, right? So unfortunately all I, this, although I say failure is not knocking, I have failed. Okay. Now having said that I brought a lot of those learnings forward into this company. Okay. One of my earlier failures was I was too protective of my intellectual property.
So, my, yeah. One of my guys invented something. It was neat. And we were almost afraid to tell people about it, for fear of them stealing our ideas. And then somewhere along the way, I learned that the worst thing that happens is not somebody stealing it. Yeah. The worst thing that happens is nobody wants right.
Maggie Kelly: Yeah,
Peichen Chang: That would really suck. You spend all this time and energy building something and nobody cares. So you don't have a [00:05:00] market. Okay. If somebody steal your ideas, now you have a competitor now actually competitors are good. Okay. Because that they validate your market. I can go out and spend a whole bunch of money advertising.
But. Somebody else out there advertising, well, guess what, there's two of us beating this drum. And especially when it comes to technologies, that folks I've never seen before the more folks out there saying that, Hey, this technology is needed. The more valid it becomes. And then your problem isn't convincing that people that, Hey, you need this thing.
Convincing that, Hey, my thing is better than their, their widget, whatever it may be. And so the message difference is very different. And so actually, I, I don't view competition as a bad thing, have you? Competition's a good thing because it uplifts the entire market.
Ross O'Brien: I hope everybody is taking a lot of notes on this because Maggie is, we get a lot of opportunities to invest in a lot of presentations. And one of the number one things that I look [00:06:00] for on the investment side of the equation and patron you're validating, this is anybody who says there's no competition is
Maggie Kelly: no
Ross O'Brien: It's amateurish.
Maggie Kelly: you're lying or you. haven't done your research.
Peichen Chang: Yeah. Or your focus is too narrow, right? Yeah. You may not have competition in this tiny little bit area. Okay. That means you're not thinking big enough,
Maggie Kelly: Yeah,
Peichen Chang: if you think you're going to have competition. That's just the way it is.
Ross O'Brien: To solve a problem, that doesn't matter. Why does it matter that you're trying to sell.
Peichen Chang: Huh.
Maggie Kelly: I liked that you brought up the The apprehension about sharing your idea, Ross and I actually met at FAU. He taught entrepreneurship programming. I ran the actual entrepreneurship programming offerings, and part of that included our entrepreneur in residence program. So aspiring entrepreneurs, students could come in, meet with someone who has been there, done that built in some cases billion-dollar companies and.
I would set up these [00:07:00] free one-on-one mentoring sessions with these geniuses. And I'd have a student sit across from my desk and say, well, what if. I don't have an NDA. I mean, I can't share my idea and like, okay, let's back up a bit. You don't, you haven't built anything yet. And obviously you're identifying how hard entrepreneurship is.
So if it's this hard for you, it's going to be just as hard for someone else. So like it doesn't just turn around. Someone's created your idea overnight. That's just not how it. But it's, it's sweet. So all of you aspiring entrepreneurs out there listening, just understand within reason. It's okay to share your idea, especially if it's someone who is willing to genuinely mentor you for yourself.
Peichen Chang: Yeah. And one of the things I've learned along the way is that there are a lot of people really, really willing to help and, and, and sometimes they want to help.[00:08:00] Just because in a way it makes them feel better. Because
Maggie Kelly: They know how hard it is.
Peichen Chang: They know how hard it is and it just feels good to help people. And a lot of these mentors are just very much that way. I've also met some of the mentors. I actually have some of these mentors and, one case this guy's a billionaire, and so, what do I have to offer him? Even if I make him 10 million bucks, it's a drop in the bucket.
He doesn't care about Tim lingo. And so, it's. Refreshing Ashley and amazing to meet some of these folks who just want to help.
Ross O'Brien: And
isn't that a Testament though, to this whole topic patron about how difficult it is. And he said, I have nothing to, I have nothing to offer them, but these people know how hard it is and how rare that kind of success. And to be able in some small way to help other entrepreneurs realize their potential.
There's no dollar value you can put on that, it's actually positively impacting the world. And Megan, I'm glad you brought up the university [00:09:00] experience because actually wanted to ask you patients something about your choices that you made early on and, and engineering. So look, we're talking about how hard entrepreneurship is.
We're talking about, ideation and IP and not having a. Nominal value versus execution. So there's a lot of research now coming out of the coffin foundation. There's a great book called burn, the business plan. And it turns out that there is almost no correlation to any entrepreneurship programs in universities and entrepreneurial success with one exception, a degree in engineering.
So talk to us about why you chose engineering, how that sort of was a part of your life plan to go into entrepreneurship and, and that sort of.
Peichen Chang: Okay. I hope this doesn't come across as a bit racist, but I I'm a Chinese guy. So as a Chinese guy growing up in Chinese household I don't get a lot of choices as far as my career path goes. Okay. I get to choose whether I'm a doctor, a dentist. Accountant or an [00:10:00] engineer. Okay. And so, being a tinker, I chose the engineering path.
And and so that, that, way that met my parents expectations of me. And but having said all that, I'm very happy that I did. Because the engineers of the world or the builders of the world, we're the, we're the ones that get to go. Huh? wonder if I can build that thing.
And so, like you said, a lot ideas out there, but it's something, oftentimes at least for our technology product, it takes an engineer to say, huh, I think I can build that thing. And that's where it gets started.
Ross O'Brien: And how many other sort of engineers do you see coming into the cannabis economy now?
Peichen Chang: It's very different from when we started to where we are today. Okay. When we started six years ago or so I was looking to I was looking for a software engineer to join the team, to help us develop our product and. I remember this so well, because there was this software engineer that was a recent college [00:11:00] grad and, we offered her the position and she turned us down because she didn't want to be associated with cannabis industry.
She would rather be unemployed than be associated with cannabis industry. And no, that was, that was about five, six years ago, today, at least in engineering. much, much less true. So we do not have as nearly as many difficulties finding talent as far as engineering goes finding talent.
And, and so, I guess back to, the cannabis, the mention of entrepreneurship, it's, it's sometimes it's a little bit harder. And so this was something that I didn't expect when starting a company was like, There are people who don't want to work for us, not because we don't, we're not building an innovative product or salary or anything like that.
They don't want to work for us just because we're cannabis. And so that was a stigma that we had.
Ross O'Brien: So you're still seeing a lot of those stigmas in the space today. I mean, that's why we talk about Maggie the cannabis economy, right? Because when we look at, so we know your company very well, we're investors in your company, patient. We don't see [00:12:00] this as a cannabis business in the sense like you're building spectrometer handheld device.
And if you think of. The demand for the person that was the inception of the company, managing their Parkinson's, what a profound problem to solve with, plant-based medicine and spectrometer technology as an engineering solution. Like it seems like the perfect storm. And yet you're saying there's still these, this friction with some of the stigma beings.
Peichen Chang: absolutely. There's definitely still a friction. I mean, the friction decreases a little bit every single day, but. And absolutely still there. Yeah.
Maggie Kelly: I think, sorry, if I can just interrupt you page And
just for our listener benefit, if you can give a little background on what actually offers to the market, like your products that you have,
Peichen Chang: okay. Okay.
Maggie Kelly: because you're actually solving a significant problem for individuals who, have. Different healthcare issues and need to actually know what they're putting into their body. so.
Peichen Chang: Sure. [00:13:00] Sure. So let's, we can roll the tape back to my friend, right? Who, who was the Genesis of this idea? So, she was using cannabis to treat her Parkinson's and she didn't want to smoke her medicine. Okay. And she preferred edibles. Now the process for making. Is that you take the cannabis plant material, you decarb it, and then you soak it into oil.
But the cannabinoids, the good stuff, and the cannabis plant is very soluble and oil. It's completely insoluble in water. And so once you, once you, so, the plants like making a tea, and once you've made this, this infused oil, you strain out of the plant bits and you have this nice rich oil to use. Now, the problem is that you don't really know how strong.
The, the potency of the oil depends on a lot of things, right? Like how well you decarb the plant how much plant you use, what the potency of the plant is to begin with, what kind of baseball you use, all that, all that kind of stuff. And so she had a very, very difficult time figuring out how strong her edibles were.
And, sometimes you make a cookie and it was not strong enough. You'd have. Sometimes you make a [00:14:00] cookie and it was way too strong. And that's actually what, that was literally the question that, that, that generated the inquiry in the first place. She wants to get a cookie. It was too strong.
She couldn't go to work the next day. And, and so it was a random experiment. So she ended up having to allocate, two days, every time she made a batch, you'd have to make it on a Friday to, to ensure that the potency was right and she'd have to experiment on herself to get the potency right. A lot of us don't have that luxury of burning a weekend just to test our medicine, to make sure that we get the dose.
And so that's how this thing all got started. So now the device T check measures the strength of that oil. So you know exactly how strong the oil is. Therefore, you know exactly how strong your cookie is going to be. Now you can dose with confidence.
Maggie Kelly: Brilliant.
Ross O'Brien: So patient, you were talking about some of the stigmas and identifying talent. Look, we've seen an incredible team that you've put together. So maybe you could talk a little bit about your team, how you've recruited them, who, what are the things that you look for? For those aspiring [00:15:00] entrepreneurs out there who are starting their own businesses.
What are your recommendations for them recruiting or people who want to go work in an innovative company like yours? How should they approach.
Peichen Chang: So I'm an old guy, see the gray hairs. And so what that means is I have a bit of experience. I've worked with a whole lot of people over the history now I would say probably a very alert, I don't know what the number is, but a very large percentage of it. That's the core team that that's developed.
You check work, guys. I work with in the past and in previous iterations or previous cycles of my career, for X, Y, or Z large, large company. And so, and I think that was a massive part of the, the early team. All of co-founders actually all work together. At one point, right?
One of the guys I used to play tennis with, he used to spank me at tennis all the time. And the other couple of guys I used to bicycle with we, we do these really, really long bike rides. And so that's how we got to know each other. Now one of the key things is you hear about these stories about people being successes pretty quickly, more times than not, it takes a bit of a swag, it's, it's it's a [00:16:00] five-year overnight success. And, and so what that means is you've got to live with these people for a very, very long time. Okay. We, we, the team spent a lot of time together. I've been to their house.
Well, I think from many all-nighters to, to develop the product or come up with strategy or whatever. And so you, you better like these people or minimally you better and will respect these people okay. For what they have to contribute. And so that is a super critical part of formulating team. Now, as we continue to grow our company, continue to hire A quote from my roommate.
And one of my college roommates comes to me, which is attitude is everything. Okay. And so nowadays when, when I'm looking at resumes or looking at whatever, know the most important part is attitude or are you a learner, right? Or can you get through difficult or unknown solve unknown questions, right?
Cause some of the problems that we have. Amorphous. We don't know. We don't even know what the real question is. And so you have to figure out what the [00:17:00] question is. And then you have to, push your way through it. One of my one of my, I guess maybe you can say is that when I'm looking at a resume for an engineer, one of the most important things I look at is whether they have a dummy or a Coursera or something like that on the resume, because what that shows to me is that they have a genuine care.
Maggie Kelly: Okay.
Peichen Chang: And they want to learn on their own and they take, they spent their own time and money to go learn. Now that those costs are cheap by 10 bucks, 12 bucks, 30 bucks, whatever, but they took the time to invest in their own time to learn something new. And in this industry, there is always something new. I mean, heck you can't turn around and find that the scientists have discovered a new cannabinoid or they've figured out what could, what the cabinet would does to the endocannabinoid system in the person's body.
You're the technology. We're building the science that we're learning. Now. It's not in a book. You have to go figure it out and you have to go hunt down there.
Ross O'Brien: Well, I mean, a lot of it's in my book paychecks, but
Maggie Kelly: [00:18:00] Stay in your lane, Ross.
Ross O'Brien: did I mention, I wrote a book? So I love this patient because we and I think this is why we work so well together. We echo that continual learning sentiment from the investor perspective. We have our guiding principles published on our website and these guiding principles are what we believe are, are critical.
Elements and foundational elements of entrepreneurship, period. Forget what sector you're in. And one of them is continual learning. And, and so we look at the challenge of entrepreneurship, much like yourself. I've had many failures along my career as a young guy, starting companies. One of the things that that becomes consistent is, it is about perseverance and it is about learning how to manage within that entrepreneurial construct.
Which is you don't have enough information. You don't have enough resources, you don't have enough time, but you gotta make decisions. And so when those decisions are made right or wrong, we look at it from saying, well, what is the thought process? It's not about [00:19:00] reading a business plan or a presentation saying, oh, you've got all the answers, right?
We want to understand what was the thinking that we. All right. And given the, the constriction of resources and information that you have, what sort of thinking went into that? Because like you said, and we see all the time, it's all about the people, right? So one of the things we look for, as well as, and listeners, that's continual learning, that's absolutely critical.
But we also look for a level of humility, right? Where if you challenge assumptions or challenge concepts, and I'd like to understand patient how you met. A team of really smart, successful, experienced people. When you have to challenge assumptions and have to unwind things and, people can get defensive and people can have disagreements.
Like how do you manage those dynamics? Because that's really the day-to-day battles that are fought in the four walls of any startup company. It.
Peichen Chang: Again, I want to say gray hair helps. I can think back on my early career, where I was an unproven engineer and [00:20:00] my perceived value was the stuff I had between my head. How good, my, how good my engineering skills work. My boss might perceive it differently, but that's how I perceive my own value.
And so, I didn't want to be wrong. I never wanted to be. Okay. And so that caused me to dig my heels in. Sometimes when I shouldn't have, the gray hair helps because now I'm like, man, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. What are you gonna do to me? And my value is not so much the engineering or technical knowledge in my head, but.
My ability to get through problems. And so, one of the most difficult things to do is asking the right questions and, and if you ask the question the wrong way, you can get a predetermined answer. And so you have to have people around you that are willing to ask very, very uncomfortable questions.
And as, the leader of an organization or department or [00:21:00] whatever, you gotta be willing to be wrong. And if you're willing to be wrong and acknowledge that somebody else's, right or smarter than you or whatever I think you can get to a whole lot better.
Maggie Kelly: Sounds a lot like Bonaventure, rough.
Peichen Chang: Oh. Oh. And also for the manner, you better know, pick your teams ass for being wrong. That is like the absolute no-no. Okay. That decisions will happen. As long as those bad decisions, like kill the company, you keep on moving.
Ross O'Brien: So, so let's talk about fatal decisions and, and, the, the company life cycle you've, you've got the gray hairs. I'm soon to be no hairs. We're somewhat getting a veteran status within the cannabis economy. And there have been so many companies that have come and gone in a very short period of time.
And Meg and I were just talking the other day. There's tends to be this presumption that just because it's a cannabis related business is guaranteed to succeed. And a lot of our background has been in healthcare prior [00:22:00] to being cannabis like yourself and the failure rates in startup entrepreneurship.
Medical devices is extraordinary. So, so why do we expect, or from your perspective, why is there this idea that every cannabis business is going to be a wild success because people love cannabis and there should not be any failure.
Peichen Chang: Oh boy.
Ross O'Brien: So we have some assumptions.
And look, this is one of the things we're trying to discuss in this, in this forum is have these conversations around the reality and the truth of what's really going on. We, we came away from one of the big industry conferences a couple of years ago, saying everybody was walking around in love with cannabis as if that gave them a free pass biz.
But, they, they didn't require it. And there's this tension, right? There's this tension of advocacy acumen versus business acumen. Now we wouldn't be here if it were not for these, really tremendously effective grassroots [00:23:00] campaigns of getting cannabis, legalization on the ballot and communities, et cetera.
But we look at that as not a free pass. These same people can just go start any business they want, because it just happens to be cannabis. It's easy because we've just had a whole conversation around how it's hard. It's not easy. So we're starting to, to, to see. A bifurcation between advocacy and acumen and business accurate.
And how do you see that competition wise? How do you see that in the, the, the people you recruit and the partners that you have? This is something that I think is really going to be painful as a transition for the cannabis economy to accept that, these, these add legacy advocates who did a great job in that swim lane.
Are going off and starting all these businesses and, and we're starting to see now, a lot of them are falling apart.
Peichen Chang: No at the end of the day, it's a business and yeah. Keep that in mind. Just because he loves something or, or because this, this, this market space happens [00:24:00] to be sexy at the time or, or there's a lot of excitement around it. I think in a day you're still running a business. You still have a profit and loss statement.
If you're not making a profit, you can die. So you got to come at it with that perspective. End of the day, you have to make, you have to build this creation that has to be self sustained and it has to grow and desire alone or, yeah, I guess the desire alone isn't enough. I mean, look at, things like I don't know, electric cars, right?
Everybody wants an electric car, right? The U S government says, when, we're going to mandate electric cars, all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, you still have to build a profitable car company. There's no doubt about it. There is a need out there. I, a hundred percent agree.
Okay. But 10,000 other guys next door also sees that there is a need out there and you're going to have to compete with them. Okay. And you're gonna have to build a business model that can beat those guests. So I think you have to keep in mind, you're building. [00:25:00] I can't stress that enough.
Ross O'Brien: and experience matters. There's a lot of business enthusiastic out there. Like there are car enthusiasts, I'm a car fanatic, but it doesn't make me the right candidate to go start the next Tesla.
Peichen Chang: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or, or, or, build a used car dealership. It won't make any sense at all. In almost in a weird way. Too much enthusiasm kind of clouds your judgment a little bit. Because then you'll come on thing. Of course, everybody loves this stuff. Why wouldn't they love this stuff?
It's obvious, but wow. People are different. And you have to figure out what it is they need and how to message that to people. I ended up getting MBA, and so I wouldn't say that's one of the more valuable experiences in my life. You gotta be able to figure out how to build a PNL, and manage that P and L and then build that balance sheet and manage that balance sheet and cash flows and all that kind of stuff. And, and so, you have to make decisions that are not necessarily based on emotion, but based [00:26:00] on logic. Just, just because you love cannabis doesn't mean you need to, be able to give away for free or whatever.
You have to build a self problem.
Ross O'Brien: And that's the, that's the underbelly of passion, right? So we talk about passionate entrepreneurs and yes, I absolutely. One of the things we love about working with you Patriot is you're committed and passionate and have a long-term approach to.
Maggie Kelly: Oh,
Ross O'Brien: Really big needs, but passion is an emotion emotion, which you just said, okay. So you have to have that balance, right? Of some elements of passion, some elements of acumen, some elements of experience, some element of innovation, it's, it's like your friend's recipes, making the, the, the cookies and the brownies. You, you get one out of balance and the whole batches is, is not gonna be effective.
Peichen Chang: Yep. For sure. For sure. Yeah.
Ross O'Brien: So we, this is really interesting. And I think the key takeaway is we always come to the same sort of point in these conversations, right? It's [00:27:00] that this idea of this, irrational, exuberance in cannabis, right? The green rush, this frenetic, everybody's starting every business owner.
Like, that's fine. That was, expected. And I think part of the landscape, when you do have a regulatory change, which is the opportunity here, right? It's the regulatory arbitrage of legalization, but when the dust settles as it will in any segment, it's, it's really the foundational entrepreneurial success stories that are going to survive and, entrepreneurship, like you said, the number one rule is don't die, right?
Like don't run out of money. That's all it comes down to.
Maggie Kelly: Yeah,
Ross O'Brien: And I think we've struggled a lot with a lot of players in the space, really cutting through the the top line assumptions, and actually peeling back the proverbial onion and getting to like, well, what are the foundational merits of this?
What are the, what are the constraints that we're [00:28:00] operating in? Because we view constraints. Like constraints. We'll give you the parameters with which to operate in a P and L is a constraint and cash flow is a constraint, a, your balance sheet and your indebtedness or your, leverage and your assets and liabilities are constraints, and you've got to operate within those.
And I think Maggie, that's the big thing that, we always talk about in our four walls. Like it just gets down to fundamentals. And we're really hoping that these conversations can bring back to the fundamentals of business and the fundamentals of entrepreneurship and then layer in the dynamic that is this tremendous opportunity in cannabis.
And to your point, Patriot with such the people rushing in, I think, w w w w we look at it as it was inevitable, but we don't necessarily We don't necessarily see it being the only rationale to be in businesses, just because like, here's what I'm trying to say. If an entrepreneur comes to us like Maggie, we're just talking about this.
We were one of the [00:29:00] presentations and they want to spend five slides talking about how big the global cannabis economics are going to be. We're having the wrong conversation. Like we are fully committed to investing in cannabis. We have a fund committed to that. We don't want to have a conversation around the billions and billions of dollars.
We want to talk about execution. How are you going to get there? What is your plan? How are your team in place? It's just refreshing to be able to have some of those conversations and to see what you've done with your team and your company, patient, and being able to really build, put the building blocks in place.
It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's, it's, it's, it's somewhat rare in this space.
Maggie Kelly: So that's a good segue Ross paycheck. If you wouldn't mind giving our entrepreneurs. Limiting you to one, but one piece of advice for entrepreneurs who are listening and also a piece of advice for investors who are also listening, because we're, we're talking a lot of what Ross is saying is coming up.
It's coming from the [00:30:00] perspective of he's sitting in the investor seat and he's sitting through the presentations and he's trying to get to the nuts and bolts about what a company or an opportunity is actually about. But there are also some investors who aren't quite as savvy as perhaps a company would like.
So I think that for that community that might be listening, I think that there's probably a bit of advice that you could share that they could find helpful. But if you could kick off with what is a piece of advice you have for entrepreneurs?
Peichen Chang: Okay. Actually before I answer that, can I add on to what Ross just said about constraints? Because Ross talked a lot about, constraints for resources, whether it be dollars or or, or whatever, or even, people, what w what kind of access do you have to people, whether it be employees or mentors or whatever, but there's also more constraints that, that
May not be as obvious. Okay. Emotional constraint, how much emotional roller coaster. Can you endure through [00:31:00] this, this whole process? Because there's some amazingly hot, amazing highs, but there also some men amazing lows. How much what kind of constraints is your family going to be able to play gonna place on you?
I, I was, I am. Amazingly fortunate. Because my wife supported me through this whole thing. I mean, look, look just a pure financial perspective. You know what, look what we've done. We've cashed out our 401k. That's our retirement plan come. Okay. We've mortgage part of the house.
Okay. We're, we're putting our house on the line for this darn thing. And that's, that's a bet that she has to make as much every, but every bit as much. The constraints placed on your children. Okay. I have three kids and you're going to spend a lot of time on this thing. And we ended up pulling many, many all-nighters which means, I don't get to be there for my kids when they come home from school or whatever.
And so, those are some of the other constraints that, that you gotta realize that that may not be as tangible, but are very, very much. And no last, not last but not [00:32:00] least your own health. This is not an easy path. And so, your health might take a beating, right? You might not get to go work out as much as you do, or maybe you might have to work out more just to, just to blow off some of that steam.
And so, be honest with yourself and figure out, okay, well, am I really in this thing? How much am I really willing to commit to this thing and how much am I willing to commit my family to this thing. And, there are going to be naysayers out there. Whomever they might be and are you willing to say, okay, well thank you for your input, but I'm going to, I'm going to plow ahead anyway.
And so, those are some, some really important factors that, that you really gotta think about. Cause you know, there were times when, There are people that came up to me and says, you walked away from what salary to go do this. Are you out of your bloody mind? And, and, and I'm thinking, yeah, because we're, we're making the world a better place.
We're helping people out and know. Yeah, they, there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, as long as I'm willing to keep on digging to get to [00:33:00] that pot of gold. I, I tell myself I guess two things, or maybe I should say, what am I, what am I I don't know. People tells me this all the same.
One of them is just tell yourself it's going to be okay. No matter, no matter how hard it is, it's going to be okay. And she tells me this all the time and it does get you through at least got me through some of those harder, more difficult. And then the last one is don't ever give up, just keep going.
There's that cartoon going around where this guy's digging a tunnel and, he's like two inches away from that, that, that bowl of or that pot of diamonds or whatever it was that article. And he just gives up. You never know how close you are, but you gotta take one more step.
Yeah. So I guess my, my piece of advice to, to
Entrepreneurs is don't give up, right? It's going to hurt a hell of a lot, but they'll give up. If you believe, if you really believe, take one more step, just, just one more step and see how far you go.
Maggie Kelly: patron. You've got my little forklift on that. I think that's brilliant advice, Ross.
Ross O'Brien: . So [00:34:00] patient, thank you for sharing that. It's actually something we talk a lot about as well. How important it is that, my, my personal experience if I can relate, I can certainly relate to it as. Never married, no kids put everything in a lot of there, there was a very high cost on my for me personally, to continue to persevere my dreams and building my company physically mentally relationships financially.
And I was reading a quote. I'll have to think of who it was. Was talking about the, to your, to your comment patient. Like everything will be okay. The quote that stood out for me is that the quote of this too shall pass, but in a balanced perspective, this too shall pass, applies to both the highs and the lows.
And there is a constant ventilation. And it's finding that frequency within those parameters that, that allows you to see it. So, funny story, I was playing golf with with our one of our partners bill and, and a couple [00:35:00] of other business partners, out in LA. And we were getting to know somebody and talking a lot about my story.
And the gentleman who was hosting us said within a year shot of Gill said, oh, you Ross, you sound like one of those 10 year overnight successes and bill Chauncey and says, It was 15. He bogeyed that dude. So yeah, we're either a two dumb stop or or it's paying off.
Maggie Kelly: Cool.
Ross O'Brien: So, so Patriot, I love what Maggie was asking as well. Maybe we could wrap up on that. W we look a lot at the entrepreneurs and we look a lot at the investors and that's two sides of the occasion that when it's symbiotic, like our relationship, great successes can be had.
You've met a lot of other investors out there in, in, in the growth of your company. Do you have some Sage advice, like you just shared with us from entrepreneurs that, that like the investors out there to here.
Peichen Chang: Most definitely. Okay. They, they call them vulture, vulture, capitalists and we've certainly met our share of vulture capitalists out there. And so, for the entrepreneur. Okay. I guess, waiting for the master to [00:36:00] not, not all investors are created equal.
And just like the team that you're building, the entrepreneur, the investor is part of your team, make no mistake about it.
Okay. They are
Maggie Kelly: Yeah.
Peichen Chang: very much a part of your team. And if you go into an ambassador thinking, oh, I'm going to get some money from them. And they just, they're just wait until the, this, this, this little pile of money turns into a big pile of money. Is that the right investor? You really want.
None. And you really want an investor to
Maggie Kelly: Hmm.
Peichen Chang: help you along the way to be a sounding board along the way. Cause most of these investors, they've been around the block a couple of times. And so they seen a lot of stuff. And so you got to look at them as, part of your advisement team or literally part of your team team.
Because otherwise you're giving up, equity in your company for a little bit of money, but whereas you can get a whole lot more than just a little bit of money. I mean, look at, Russ, I [00:37:00] mean, you and I have been working together for some time now and look what you brought to the table, right?
It's
Maggie Kelly: Okay.
Peichen Chang: yes. You've invested money and we really much appreciate that. But look, what else you brought to us?
You've you've supplemented our marketing team. You've supplemented, you've helped with the accounting stuff. You've helped with introductions to other folks in the in the ecosystem.
It's a whole hell of a lot more than just some money. And, and that, that, that cannot be it.
Ross O'Brien: Well, thank you. That's a great endorsement. We enjoy working with you as well, patient and, and, as the, the VC on the call, we always, we hear that too. You're in vulture capital. And I think in this. Sector. It applies more than anything to inexperienced investors and from our extreme, from what we've seen, those investors that tend to be tagged as vulture, or, making commitments and not funding them or trying for like really creative, on all structures and, overreaching on valuation and things like that.
Those tend to fit those [00:38:00] individuals and those firms that we've come across.
Know are typically, this is their first rodeo, right? They're in, they're excited about cannabis. They want to put some money to work. They think being an investor is the way to do it, but, we cut our teeth for, like I said, almost 15 years and healthcare and other sectors and entrepreneurship and investing and managing transactions.
I mean, that muscle memory matters. And I think when you see that, because we look at the relationship the same way, you just try to get a patient and say partnership and it's for the longterm.
Maggie Kelly: Yeah.
Ross O'Brien: So if we're not otherwise, adding value beyond just the money we put in the companies where we're not doing our job.
Peichen Chang: I'm so happy to hear you say that, we, we have turned away. Firms, if you will. Because we felt that it wasn't good shit. Their, their goals were not in in alignment with ours. And so, it was painful to do that, right? When somebody sticks a big check in front of your face and says, here is hard, especially when you only have, I think if it's only a few hundred bucks in the bank account at the [00:39:00] time, and it's really, really hard, but for the, the. The the best thing, as a CEO, you have to do what's best for the company. And while it may have helped us through a very short, difficult time, isn't it wasn't best for the company long term. And so we said, I'm sorry, this, this, this is not going to work for us. We have to restructure.
Ross O'Brien: I I love to hear you talk about that patient. We've done the same thing, and we talk a lot about having to make what it means to make a payroll on a Friday and what it means to, have to run companies and, and, personally, I've, I've gone down that path as well and never once.
And yes, the money, seems exciting and a small for the problems, but there's usually some other issues that need to be addressed. And if you take the money off the table and you're very sanguine about it and, and look at what's happening, you have to have that kind of discipline and conviction.
I think that's really great advice for the aspiring entrepreneurs out there that are listening to this. It's, [00:40:00] experience matters, I think is the key takeaway of this conversation and experience matters with your investors as much as your team and your entrepreneur. pagan, thank you. What a great conversation.
And, and I would say just for everyone that's listening out there, the thing that's really tremendous about this is that it's really authentic. We we're having conversations that we otherwise would, we've had outside of this format of a podcast. It's really how we think about working together. And I hope that those of you out there that are getting some insights from patient in this conversation can, can, can get some benefit.
Maggie Kelly: Peyton. Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses. And anytime you've done anything like this with us before, it's just always been a great experience and your perspectives are very much appreciated. I'm a founder myself and my mentor is also my boss. So I really appreciate a lot of your feedback in the perspectives that you
Peichen Chang: Thank you. And I, I got to say that I also don't get to have. The conversation with my investors. Yeah. And [00:41:00] so thank you for this.